Thamiris ([info]thamiris) wrote,
@ 2003-10-21 12:22:00
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Current mood: dorky

Burnt Offerings: Thinking About Lex and Lionel

*Note: This post contains a discussion of the metaphoric connections between Smallville characters and figures in Christian mythology, written from an analytical perspective and not a devout one.

The post-crash reunion between Lex and his father opens when the son speaks these words: Abraham threw Isaac on the pyre to prove his faith to God. What was your excuse? Part of Lex's frustration with his father lies in the difficulty of understanding Lionel's motives in general. Does Lionel behave from love, from the desire to make his son the strongest man in the world, operating on the principle that what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger? Or does Lionel ultimately want to destroy Lex to prove finally his own superiority, creating a worthy opponent for the ego-boosting satisfaction of destroying him?

[info]mecurtin pointed out that the notorious hug scene in Phoenix occurs with an aria from Gounod's Faust playing in the background, implying that Lex is making a deal with the devil. But I'd like to adjust the meaning of this scene: I think it's Lex who is the metaphorical Lucifer, not Lionel. There's only one niche in Western culture grand enough for Lionel, complicated, arbitrary, mysterious, all-power, and that's God himself.

First, Lionel as God. Consider the story of Abraham and Isaac. While Lex clearly sees overtones of this Biblical story in his relationship with his father, but also feels that it fails as a metaphor because Abraham's motive for the sacrifice are clear: to prove his faith in God. The more appropriate role for Lionel in this role is God's, with his strange, obscure motives, behavior much more akin to the devil's than God's, one reason this passage often confounds scholars: And it came to pass after these things that God did tempt Abraham ,and said unto him, "Abraham," and he said, "Behold, here I am. And he said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him here for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of (Gen. 22:1-2).

When the angel of God appears to stop Abraham's knife he says, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me (Gen. 22:12). The double whammy of temptation and fear, not to mention the sheer selfishness of demanding such a sacrifice from a man so righteous that he never pauses, never delays in acting out God's wishes, offers a problematic vision of God the Father, one not above obscurely-rooted, torturous demands on his followers. It's not hard to believe in this God as the creator of Lucifer -- an idea so disturbing to some in the Middle Ages, this idea that evil could come from pure good, that various heresies, including the Cathar (Albigensian), developed the notion of an alternate universe ruled by an evil God, with Satan as his servant. (See Malcom Lambert's Medieval Heresy for more.)

The Book of Job adds to this image of God as less than perfect figure, since the trials of Job spring from a conversation between God and Satan. In her book The Origin of Satan, the well-known scholar Elaine Pagels says that God "boasts" of Job to Satan when he says, Have you considered my servant Job, that here is no one like him on earth, a blessed and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? (Job 1:8). She adds, The Lord agrees to test Job, authorizing the satan to afflict Job with devastating loss, but defining precisely how far he may go (42).

It is this version of God that suits Lionel, the one who likes relationships predicated on fear, and who amuses himself with cruel challenges, who boasts and plays with mortals with the callous blindness of the three Greek sisters. He's unpredictable, untrustworthy, arbitrary, selfish, dangerous, powerful and not a little scary, the kind of guy who'd call an assembly of hundreds of workers then fire them all, blaming his son. He's also the type who'd invent for himself an adversary, a fellow gameplayer to keep him amused through eternity; humans, after all, are so malleable, so easily breakable if you know where to hurt them. And who knows better than God?

God and Lucifer is the second defining father/son relationship in Western culture, and Lex, who will fall, is clearly not Christ, although perhaps he wants to be. Isaiah 14:12-15 contains the most famous and influential Biblical (as opposed to apocryphal or literary) account of Lucifer's story: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground ,which didst weaken the nations! For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

In the most famous literary version of the story, Milton, aiming to "justify the ways of God to men" (1.26), explains Lucifer's evil as something inherent to him, so that it's his own "pride," and not God himself that "had him cast out from heaven" (1.36-37). God's hands remain clean, at least in theory, but of course this ignores the sticky questions, so troubling to future Cathars, of how evil can burst into spontaneous being if God is the creator of all; since God is the source of all, God ergo must contain evil.

Even with the introduction of free will, God doesn't come off well, still bears the taint of his own responsibility, like a parent who didn't raise his son right, who bound him so tightly to his son that the son began to strangle, begin to desire power of his own, to break away from the old man's bonds and found his own dynasty. Isaiah and Milton call this impulse "pride," but isn't it equally a desire for freedom, for individuality? And surely a guy with the balls to start a poem that claims to explain the ways of God to man can get behind the idea of pride. Pride is destructive, divisive, but it works like birth in the Christian story, the cutting of the cord, separation as the start of subjectivity. Start me off in Heaven with a Dad who keeps telling me what to do, whose rules are the only ones ("Why, Dad?" "Because I'm God." "Oh."), and I'd be leading my own rebel army against him, like Lex does, or threatens to.

Right now he's pretending, or perhaps even genuinely trying to be a good son, to shut off his own identity in order to satisfy his father. During the hug scene in Phoenix, that hideous awkward hug, like Judas with Christ in Renaissance art, or Satan and God if any of the painters had dared to represent that, what does Lex say to his father? He offers submission, perfect submission, the erasure of self, promising to give up the one trait always ascribed as the start of the Fall, the worst of the seven deadly sins: If I keep my pride in check, I know there's a lot more to learn from you.

It's a losing battle, as we all know, and the irony is that in breaking with his father, Lex, just like his namesake, has nowhere else to go, no other system that will bring him happiness. Or perhaps the truth is this: the fatal flaw shared by Lex and Lucifer isn't pride. Pride will save you, free you, strengthen you. No, these two remain perpetual exiles because they lose their pride; they live always engaged in battle with their fathers, not realizing that in the act of fighting, in the act of competing, they forever remain locked in the role of son.

Surely it's no accident that Lucifer never procreates; he's the perpetual son, never the Father, because he never finds enough confidence to establish a world not governed by God's rules, a world where he's different, not evil. Both of them, the two sons, will always see themselves as failures, beings who couldn't satisfy their dad, not realizing that these fathers can never be satisfied without the sons attached to them like limbs, without the sons dying to prove their love. And even then...
___

The Face of Sirius Black
Last night I dreamt of Sirius Black. And can I pause here to complain that when teaching me scansion, the rhythm of poetic lines, my professors never told me that I could make my dirty dreams sound better, that porn would flow if only I listened to the beats. To this day my hearing's more intuitive, and I never cover meter in class, just hope that their student ears will catch the waves. Chaucer makes a very nice splash, oysters and cloisters, yeah.

So Sirius Black was in my dreams, a series of them, his face changing for each, always hurtfully beautiful, all cheekbones and hollows, hair a little too long but still thick and shiny, finger-rumpled. I remember his mouth, too, sharply cut, the kind that turns even straight boys sodomitic. Remus wasn't there, but he would've pictured his cock between Sirius' pink lips. [info]suzycat asked not long ago about the blank faces of fictional boys, what we see, and now it seems like the best thing ever, the clouds in the text where Sirius' face would go, perfect-sized for my ideal man. (Or men -- why have one perfect man when you can have three or four? Perfection in plurals, erotic legion. It's why I've always found the Devil kind of cool -- multiples instead of a limiting One. Not the actual devil, of course; I'm not worshipping Satan in my spare time, no altars to the dark lord here. Bwhahaha. There's a thought. I find it hard enough to hide all the gay porn when my parents come to visit...)
___



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[info]echoskeleton
2003-10-21 12:43 pm UTC (link)
Whoa. I don't have anything even remotely intelligent to say here. I'm too impressed for words. Just, this makes so much sense. I love it. And you. Especially you.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:16 pm UTC (link)
Coolness! Glad you liked it, Becca. Lex's comment about Abraham and Isaac, his rejection of the template, has been with me since the episode and I wanted to work it out, what it meant or seemed to mean. :-)

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(no subject) - [info]echoskeleton, 2003-10-21 02:22 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]mlleelizabeth
2003-10-21 12:44 pm UTC (link)
I like your take on Lionel. His cloning experiments certainly fit in well with it. I can also see something of a Jor-El/Clark parallel going on in SV.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:22 pm UTC (link)
Hot damn, Liz! I love your idea about the cloning, and it fits so perfectly into my argument, but, sadly, it didn't even occur to me.

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*abject worship*
[info]spiderine
2003-10-21 12:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to start a First Church of Thamiris. :)

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Re: *abject worship*
[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:31 pm UTC (link)
Hee! If that means I get some hot consort who looks just like Clark Kent (or Lex Luthor, or Sirius Black), then I'm all for it.

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[info]cosmic
2003-10-21 12:57 pm UTC (link)
Oh, good gods wow. I'm too tired to form any kind of intelligent thought, but may I just say? I want to marry you. *fans self* Religious symbolism gets me every single time.

Although, I disagree on your last paragraph - even though Milton was probably on some opium or otherwise weird half the time, and it isn't like Paradise Lost is an actual part of the Bible - Sin and Death? Lucifer's daughter and son/grandson.

Anyway. I love every word you said. Maybe at some point tomorrow, I'll comment something articulate. ;)

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:36 pm UTC (link)
Oh, good gods wow. I'm too tired to form any kind of intelligent thought, but may I just say? I want to marry you. *fans self* Religious symbolism gets me every single time.

Marriage offers always brighten my day, especially from someone who shares my love for religious symbolism and allegory.

Although, I disagree on your last paragraph - even though Milton was probably on some opium or otherwise weird half the time, and it isn't like Paradise Lost is an actual part of the Bible - Sin and Death? Lucifer's daughter and son/grandson.

Oh, good point. I'd counter it by saying that in popular culture Lucifer tends to be represented as the son, always the inferior of God, and that will certain sources attribute offspring to him, the relationship never achieves the same cultural potency as God-Lucifer or God-Christ.

Anyway. I love every word you said. Maybe at some point tomorrow, I'll comment something articulate. ;)

Looking forward to it if you do, babe. :-)

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[info]edeainfj
2003-10-21 01:13 pm UTC (link)
I remember his mouth, too, sharply cut, the kind that turns even straight boys sodomitic.

*faints*

And that's all I had to say.

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Sirius Black's mouth
[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Heh. Normally I don't have dreams about my lust objects, and generally don't share dreams in general, but, hon, you should've seen him. Jesus. I'm standing there talking to him, and he's So. Fucking. Hot. His mouth... *squees like a little girl*

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[info]maraceles
2003-10-21 01:21 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Just...wow. I'll be more coherent later, when I actually have something to say.

*rabidly prints out the essay*

Must go ponder...

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:45 pm UTC (link)
Mara, you're not really going to print it out? This makes me go, "Yoicks!" Now I wish I'd spent more time writing it. ;-)

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(no subject) - [info]maraceles, 2003-10-21 04:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]maraceles, 2003-10-21 05:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]maraceles, 2003-10-21 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to Parts 1 and 2 - [info]thamiris, 2003-10-21 11:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to Parts 1 and 2 - [info]maraceles, 2003-10-22 05:05 am UTC (Expand)

[info]happyminion
2003-10-21 01:33 pm UTC (link)
This is going to be submitted to Existential Heroes, yes?? *g* Kat will ask, I'm just sayin'.

But, um on the matter of what you said:

But I'd like to adjust the meaning of this scene: I think it's Lex who is the metaphorical Lucifer, not Lionel.

Gods, what a chill ran through me when I read this, because...I actually agree wholeheartedly. I had been bugging everyone trying to find out what that piece of music was from playing in the background of the Phoenix scene. We learned in Lineage that they will use a piece of opera to foreshadow Luthor dynamics, so...this just makes me intrigued on many levels. Thanks to mercutin for enlightening me, via you.

And thanks for that chill inducing moment. It's not often that meta does that to me, so much as a story will, but...gah. Yes, very well done!

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 01:58 pm UTC (link)
This is going to be submitted to Existential Heroes, yes?? *g* Kat will ask, I'm just sayin'.

I told someone there that they could have my stuff without bothering to ask. Keeps things simple that way. ;-)

Gods, what a chill ran through me when I read this, because...I actually agree wholeheartedly. I had been bugging everyone trying to find out what that piece of music was from playing in the background of the Phoenix scene. We learned in Lineage that they will use a piece of opera to foreshadow Luthor dynamics, so...this just makes me intrigued on many levels. Thanks to mercutin for enlightening me, via you.

I was quite pleased to see Mary Ellen's finding, although I don't agree with the idea that Lionel is the Lucifer or Mephistophiles figure; it dichotimizes too neatly concepts of good and evil. I like my reading better because it acknowledges the ambiguities in both characters, if I can say that without seeming too arrogant.

And thanks for that chill inducing moment. It's not often that meta does that to me, so much as a story will, but...gah. Yes, very well done!

Thanks, babe. Always happy to give people the chills. *g*

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(no subject) - [info]happyminion, 2003-10-21 02:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Lex as Abraham?
[info]nifra_idril
2003-10-21 01:39 pm UTC (link)
Tham, as always you argue your point eloquently and persuasively. I agree completely with the idea of "Lionel-as-God". The grandiose demands and almost whimsical arbitraryness he often exhibits is right in keeping with the role.

The casting of Lex as Lucifer doesn't work quite as well for me, though. Especially when we're discussing the Akedah -- I see Lex much more as Abraham. I admit the match isn't perfect - but consider. Abraham before the Akedah is portrayed as rebellious; he challenges God on many occasions, and makes use of his own cleverness and resourcefulness to get out of messy situations (often in ways that break or bend God's laws). God exiles him from his homeland (Smallville to Metropolis), and isolates him from even Lot who follows Abraham looking for their 'promised land' and makes promises of a great inheretance that seem virtually impossible to keep. The story of Abraham and Isaac, then, is the story of yet another of God's tests.

I see Helen as one such test that kind of spirals out of control - which, depending on your reading of the story, maybe the same with Abraham and Isaac. Some scholars believe that God asked only for Isaac to be laid out on the alter, and not sacrificed, and that Abraham was willing to go that extra step due, for whatever reason. I like to read the passage as Abraham kind of playing chicken with God.

The relationship between Abraham and Isaac is clearly a dysfunctional father/son relationship, similar in quality to the relations between Lex and Lionel. And always, there's the promise to Lex that his inheritance will be the 'world', as was the covenant between Abraham and God. So, if you look at the whole thing in those terms, the Pheonix scene in the library could be looked at as an instance of 'covenant'.

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Re: Lex as Abraham?
[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 02:18 pm UTC (link)
The story of Abraham and Isaac, then, is the story of yet another of God's tests.

Sounds interesting, but I'd need a more specific connection between Smallville, Lex and the figure of Isaac story; he's too central to an argument about Lex and Abraham to remain uncast. Is Isaac Clark? But for that to work, then God-Lionel would have to demand the sacrifice of Clark, his friendship with Lex. It's quite possible that this will happen on the show; it's just the kind of Machiavellian-Job-testing thing that Lionel would do, but thus far he hasn't.

I see Helen as one such test that kind of spirals out of control - which, depending on your reading of the story, maybe the same with Abraham and Isaac.

But the God-Lucifer relationship is equally, if not more so, predicated on testing and challenges, as we see in the story of Job. Satan is always pushing, testing his limits, so I'm not willing to give up my reading of Lex-Lucifer on this grounds. :-)

Some scholars believe that God asked only for Isaac to be laid out on the alter, and not sacrificed, and that Abraham was willing to go that extra step due, for whatever reason. I like to read the passage as Abraham kind of playing chicken with God.

I imagine that many scholars would be quite keen on rewriting the story of Abraham and Isaac because it so clearly places God in an unflattering light. I see it as it's written, at least in the KJ translation, as the story of a God willing to fuck with people to prove himself against the Devil.

The relationship between Abraham and Isaac is clearly a dysfunctional father/son relationship, similar in quality to the relations between Lex and Lionel. And always, there's the promise to Lex that his inheritance will be the 'world', as was the covenant between Abraham and God. So, if you look at the whole thing in those terms, the Pheonix scene in the library could be looked at as an instance of 'covenant'.

Or you could see the scene as I do, as a snapshot from Heaven before the Fall, with Lucifer either 1) making a last-ditch effort to reconcile with Dad or 2) taking one big, deceitful step toward the cloudy edge.

Difference is always good, though, so thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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[info]earis
2003-10-21 01:43 pm UTC (link)
Even with the introduction of free will, God doesn't come off well, still bears the taint of his own responsibility, like a parent who didn't raise his son right, who bound him so tightly to his son that the son began to strangle, begin to desire power of his own, to break away from the old man's bonds and found his own dynasty. Isaiah and Milton call this impulse "pride," but isn't it equally a desire for freedom, for individuality?

I am glad to finally hear someone else endorse the 'sin' of pride, specifically in relation to the Bible. To me, pride springs from the courage to use your free will, whatever you have of it.

Last year, in a writing seminar we read Marlowe's Faust and the very same questions were raised in my mind. Is pride a sin? Is curiosity certain to lead to a fall from grace? Is a fall from grace necessarily undesireable?
Then a professor presented us with a homoerotic reading of the Faust/Mephistopheles relationship in which all Faust's women are simply Mephistopheles in disguise and at the end the outcry of 'Oh, Mephistopheles' is a actually a moan of pleasure. Then it hit me that Marlowe was part of a subversive bunch of poets during the Elizabethian age, he led a dark and troubled life. There were probably people in the audience who saw the fall of Faust as a triumph over a possesive and controling god, the final victory of the will and the pride of man.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 02:32 pm UTC (link)
I am glad to finally hear someone else endorse the 'sin' of pride, specifically in relation to the Bible. To me, pride springs from the courage to use your free will, whatever you have of it.

Christianity has such an ambiguous relationship to selfhood, which to me is intimately tied up wih pride, because pride, in its primary definition according to the OED, is simply, a feeling of elation or satisfaction at achievements or qaulities or possessions etc. that do one credit." To have pride is to believe oneself separate from the herd, a quality allowable only if you're redirecting other strays back into the fold.

Last year, in a writing seminar we read Marlowe's Faust and the very same questions were raised in my mind. Is pride a sin? Is curiosity certain to lead to a fall from grace? Is a fall from grace necessarily undesireable?

A play like Marlowe's Dr. Faustus is so clearly Renaissance in its asking of those questions, turning away from a medieval insistence on community and belonging. It's about the role of the "I" and in a culture starting to privilege the individual those questions feel inevitable; individuals are defined by resistance to community, and God becomes the figure most likely to stamp out difference.

Then a professor presented us with a homoerotic reading of the Faust/Mephistopheles relationship in which all Faust's women are simply Mephistopheles in disguise and at the end the outcry of 'Oh, Mephistopheles' is a actually a moan of pleasure. Then it hit me that Marlowe was part of a subversive bunch of poets during the Elizabethian age, he led a dark and troubled life. There were probably people in the audience who saw the fall of Faust as a triumph over a possesive and controling god, the final victory of the will and the pride of man.

I think that the play works in multiple ways, which is why it's a favorite of mine. The medieval Everyman, a generic precursor, is much neater in that the protagonist, after some resistance, ultimately accepts his fate, chooses the right side. Faustus is so great because his ending raises more questions than it answers, so that even the "Oh..." that you mention lends itself to a queer reading (especially given the stories about Marlowe). I don't think that the men and women of the Renaissance were ready for a clear break from the ideas of the past, but that's why the play works: it's neither a clear victory, nor a clear defeat.

Man, I love that play. *g*

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(no subject) - [info]sageness, 2003-10-21 03:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]maraceles, 2003-10-21 03:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sageness, 2003-10-21 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]maraceles, 2003-10-22 05:32 am UTC (Expand)

[info]thepouncer
2003-10-21 01:58 pm UTC (link)
You make me wish I knew Christian myths as well as I know the Greek ones. I only have the most basic knowledge of the Bible.

And your description of Sirius made me swoon.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 02:39 pm UTC (link)
You make me wish I knew Christian myths as well as I know the Greek ones. I only have the most basic knowledge of the Bible.

You should give it a go, hon. It's got some wild, wild stories in it, lots of crazy-ass shit, and as for influential on Western culture? It's everywhere. (Heh. I'm a strange pimp for the Bible, being an atheist, but I do find it fascinating.)

And your description of Sirius made me swoon.

Thanks, hon. I couldn't believe that I had a whole night with Sirius Black! I talked with him and everything. *swoons* It's the middle of the day, but I want to go back to sleep. ;-)

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[info]ann_tara
2003-10-21 02:00 pm UTC (link)
Lex as Lucifer and Lionel as God?

Wow, that's not a concept I had considered before, but hell if it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Really, really impressed. ;D

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 02:44 pm UTC (link)
Lex as Lucifer and Lionel as God?

Wow, that's not a concept I had considered before, but hell if it doesn't make a lot of sense.


Hiya, hon. I kept coming back to that Abraham-Isaac comment that Lex made, how he rejected it, and I wanted to find something that would make sense of their crazy-ass relationship.

Really, really impressed. ;D

Thanks! It was fun to write. :-)

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[info]yourpoison
2003-10-21 02:52 pm UTC (link)
God (er... and now I'm all conscious of beginning a comment with that... um), your journal is a cornucopia of the passions of the mind, all sparkling like some constellation to gaze at and be content. Sometimes you just say things in such a way that I can only wonder at all the vistas you just made clearer-- I love that feeling. It's what I want from my classes-- I suppose this is the true meaning of `enlightenment'-- to see clearer what you'd always already had the potential to see.
And taking the silly PoMo-crit class, I'm all uncertain about using "metaphors of light", but I really don't think it's the metaphors that are at fault with humanity's violence to its own rhythms of existence. I mean. They talk about balance and then they just obsess about all the metaphors of light everywhere, like being obsessive-compulsive about that one thing will solve our perpetual infatuation with the concept of the Most High vision.

I of course am fascinated with the relationship between mankind & God&Lucifer, and the patterns behind those archetypes. There's just such -tension- there that lends itself to so many stories, so many re-interpretations, so that over and over you can discover your own stories in that one. I love your contrast between true pride & a sort of false pride which isn't about freedom but rather about remaining trapped within the initial discourse. It's like Lucifer still speaks God's language, and he maybe he still loves him, too, you know? Maybe that's it, too. Maybe it's just that he wants to make God -proud-, his -father- proud, and that's why he can't bear turning away completely to generate his own logos.

I find it hard enough to hide all the gay porn when my parents come to visit...
heeeee. The mental images. Heeeeeeeee. Love it~:)
I think in the 20th century a number of people tried to appropriate "Satan" as a metaphor for truly free thought, for multiplicity, for beauty vs order, etc. I don't know what I think about that-- I mean, I can appreciate it the same way I appreciate feminism-- as having the right sort of idea-- but its limitations are also apparent.
Still, this was just a longwinded fan-letter, really~:))

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 04:25 pm UTC (link)
It's what I want from my classes-- I suppose this is the true meaning of `enlightenment'-- to see clearer what you'd always already had the potential to see.

That's what I want from my classes, too, at the different end of it, but so often I'm limited or let myself be limited by the blank faces staring back at me, the students who haven't read the text, or who find the room too hot, who'd rather be out drinking than thinking about anything smart. *g* Just some of my own anxieties popping out here.

And taking the silly PoMo-crit class, I'm all uncertain about using "metaphors of light", but I really don't think it's the metaphors that are at fault with humanity's violence to its own rhythms of existence. I mean. They talk about balance and then they just obsess about all the metaphors of light everywhere, like being obsessive-compulsive about that one thing will solve our perpetual infatuation with the concept of the Most High vision.

LOL What are you reading there, chica? Derrida on "Violence and Metaphysics?" Sometimes you just want to beat him over the head wih his own language, don't you? Existence would be so much easier if we did more of it, thought less about it. Of course, then our brains would atrophy and we'd be swinging from the trees again, but still...

I love your contrast between true pride & a sort of false pride which isn't about freedom but rather about remaining trapped within the initial discourse. It's like Lucifer still speaks God's language, and he maybe he still loves him, too, you know? Maybe that's it, too. Maybe it's just that he wants to make God -proud-, his -father- proud, and that's why he can't bear turning away completely to generate his own logos.

Yes, that's it exactly. Lucifer knows only the language of God, and is forever doomed to speak it, to cast himself as the nouns of pride and fall and evil. If only he could learn to speak a new language, form a unique act of creation instead of a reproduction of his Father's, with all of its binaries, then he'd be free. I find that so sad, somehow, how locked he is in the same place, thinking he's done something new, but of course remains desperately unhappy, always Outside. Reinscribe your boundaries, Lucifer!

I think in the 20th century a number of people tried to appropriate "Satan" as a metaphor for truly free thought, for multiplicity, for beauty vs order, etc.

The devil, though, is cast as evil, but isn't that the rub? That he's cast there, not that he is? It's all in how you choose to read the text. His biggest fault in the Bible is to desire power, to try and take it, and to stir up some shit -- that's not necessarily evil. Why not appropriate the metaphor, then? God scares me more than the Devil. God has might and right on his side, but he dictates it, like some scary politician who refuses to see any side but his own. I mean, yikes.

Interesting thoughts as always, Reena. :-)

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[info]pun
2003-10-21 03:11 pm UTC (link)
This was a really interesting read. And though I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the God-Lucifer stories it makes a lot of sense to me.

Start me off in Heaven with a Dad who keeps telling me what to do, whose rules are the only ones ("Why, Dad?" "Because I'm God." "Oh."), and I'd be leading my own rebel army against him

LOL! And Word.

I especially like your conclusion that it's in fact lack of pride that keeps Lex down. I want to think more about that.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 04:37 pm UTC (link)
This was a really interesting read. And though I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the God-Lucifer stories it makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks, babe. One of the reasons that I love Smallville, other than the massive gay pretty, is that it keeps throwing out these mythological/biblical references, which is like candy at Halloween to me.

I especially like your conclusion that it's in fact lack of pride that keeps Lex down. I want to think more about that.

It's kind of sadly ironic, don't you think, Pun? He could have such confidence, but he doesn't, not in the end; he bows to his father's knowledge and will. Evil!Lex of the future is just his father all over again, and where's the pride in losing yourself like that? Poor Lex. :(

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P.S.
[info]earis
2003-10-21 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Your St. Sebastian icon?
Purty.

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Re: P.S.
[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Thank, hon. [info]velvetglove made it for me. :-)

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[info]fabrisse
2003-10-21 04:14 pm UTC (link)
My question then, if Lionel is God (and I'm sure he thinks he is), is he a predestinationist? Does he see the grand arc of Lex's life and know what Lex will become?

Your thesis raises so many questions. Comic canon Lex is protected by Hope and Mercy. He'll give up his daughter to save the world, and his right hand offended him so he cut it off. (All right, it was cancer, and this Lex is left-handed, but still.) Moreover, Extinction shows the beginning of Lex's comprehending his difference -- are we seeing the formation of the pride that will cast him from heaven? And if LuthorCorp is Heaven, I want to go to hell.

Lionel's healing eyesight takes on new meaning if he's God, as does his surprise at Clark and Martha, in different episodes, last season. If Lex/Lucifer was created to provide some surprises, what does it mean that the "good" characters can surprise him? (All right, Clark was under a bad influence. However, he's never cowered before Lionel the way others do/have.)

Since the Smallville producers are using heavenly and Christ imagery for Clark (and we can all joke about Lana as the BVM), is there a more direct link between Lionel and the meteor shower or Lionel and Jor-El than we know?

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 04:54 pm UTC (link)
My question then, if Lionel is God (and I'm sure he thinks he is), is he a predestinationist? Does he see the grand arc of Lex's life and know what Lex will become?

My initial response was to say, "Yes," but after a few seconds I've decided that he doesn't, but thinks he does. That is, if he truly believed that Lex was destined to follow Lionel's path, then he wouldn't really need to encourage Lex, would he? It would simply happen. But he does push Lex hard so that Lex will become the person Lionel wants.

Your thesis raises so many questions. Comic canon Lex is protected by Hope and Mercy. He'll give up his daughter to save the world, and his right hand offended him so he cut it off. (All right, it was cancer, and this Lex is left-handed, but still.)

I can't really speak to comic!Lex; I don't know enough about him, and my fascination is with MR's version. :-)

Moreover, Extinction shows the beginning of Lex's comprehending his difference -- are we seeing the formation of the pride that will cast him from heaven? And if LuthorCorp is Heaven, I want to go to hell.

You mean his difference from others in general? He has been aware of that from the beginning, though, unless you mean something else. He talks in the pilot, in Craving, etc about growing up as a freak, about how he has accepted his own otherness. LuthorCorp *would* be Heaven, wouldn't it? Hierarchies, order, one will to rule them all...

Lionel's healing eyesight takes on new meaning if he's God, as does his surprise at Clark and Martha, in different episodes, last season.

I don't think the idea of a blind god will surprise that many people. *g*

If Lex/Lucifer was created to provide some surprises, what does it mean that the "good" characters can surprise him? (All right, Clark was under a bad influence. However, he's never cowered before Lionel the way others do/have.)

I'm not following you here, Fabi: I don't see the correlation between Lex being created as Lionel's plaything and his ability to be surprised by goodness? Lionel isn't pure evil, and neither is Lex; they're both messy complex amalgams of both. And he wouldn't cower before Lionel: Lucifer's biggest sin is that he refuses to cower.

Since the Smallville producers are using heavenly and Christ imagery for Clark (and we can all joke about Lana as the BVM), is there a more direct link between Lionel and the meteor shower or Lionel and Jor-El than we know?

Quite possibly, but I'm not sure what. Plenty of room for speculation, though. ;-)

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(no subject) - [info]fabrisse, 2003-10-21 07:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thamiris, 2003-10-22 02:14 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]carlanesses
2003-10-21 04:49 pm UTC (link)
The Isaiah reference is even more interesting in this context when you know it's actually part of a section defaming the King of Babylonia (the word Lucifer isn't used much outside of the King James Version). Isaiah 14:16-17 - The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask, "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble? Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home? . . . and 14:20 - Because you ruined your country and killed your own people, you will not be buried like other kings. None of your evil family will survive.

Smacks rather strongly of future canon Lex to me.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 05:14 pm UTC (link)
(the word Lucifer isn't used much outside of the King James Version).

That doesn't really matter, though, because culturally the passage is associated with Lucifer -- Milton sure thought so, and who am I to go against him?

Smacks rather strongly of future canon Lex to me.

It also sounds very much like the God of Judgment Day.

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[info]sarashina_nikki
2003-10-21 05:19 pm UTC (link)
In the most famous literary version of the story, Milton, aiming to "justify the ways of God to men" (1.26), explains Lucifer's evil as something inherent to him, so that it's his own "pride," and not God himself that "had him cast out from heaven" (1.36-37).

I like your idea of Lex as Lucifer. Now, allow me to put a different spin on the Christian story.

As you demonstrated above, the Christian view of Lucifer's Fall is that he was too pridefull. God told Lucifer to bow to man and Lucifer wouldn't do it because of his pride.

Muslims have a slightly different version. In Islam, still God told Lucifer to bow to man and Lucifer wouldn't do it. But instead of being too prideful, Lucifer was too loving. Lucifer couldn't bear to bow to anyone but God because he loved God too much. Hell is hell because those who exist there exist without the presence of God.

God displaces his favored son with another and demands that Lucifer submiss to the new son. When Lucifer refuses, that initiates the Fall.

Now, doesn't Lex have a brother...? Or, alternatively, doesn't Lionel now have cloning technology? Hm.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 08:12 pm UTC (link)
Muslims have a slightly different version. In Islam, still God told Lucifer to bow to man and Lucifer wouldn't do it. But instead of being too prideful, Lucifer was too loving. Lucifer couldn't bear to bow to anyone but God because he loved God too much. Hell is hell because those who exist there exist without the presence of God.

Oh, interesting stuff! Parts of that story are not unlike what you'd find in apocryphal Christian texts: In Vita Adae et Evae, Satan tells God to fuck off when God tells him to bow before Adam, althought it's not for love, but because he's older than Adam and believes he deserves reverence for that. (Pagels is the source for this.)

I do find fascinating the idea of excessive love on Lucifer's part in the Islamic version of the story, obsessive, really. Funny that God didn't go for it.

Now, doesn't Lex have a brother...? Or, alternatively, doesn't Lionel now have cloning technology? Hm.

Lex had a younger brother, Julian, who died under vaguely mysterious circumstances; it's possible to read an implication of his young self as the murderer in "Stray." There's also Lucas from "Prodigal." Either way, your version provides intriguing subtext -- thanks for sharing it.

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[info]buggery
2003-10-21 06:09 pm UTC (link)
Another fantastic essay on Smallville's mythological underpinnings, Tham, and a big fat 'logos' to all of your analysis. Much as I want to look as much the scholar of religion that I am by getting into some of that, though, pretty much everything I might have contributed has already been raised. Also, there's this:

Does Lionel behave from love, from the desire to make his son the strongest man in the world, operating on the principle that what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger? Or does Lionel ultimately want to destroy Lex to prove finally his own superiority, creating a worthy opponent for the ego-boosting satisfaction of destroying him?

Good questions, certainly, but perhaps better considered without the either/or framework for Lionel's motive. If the two likeliest outcomes are Lex's ultimate triumph or Lionel's, then his parenting practices have a win/win result; either Lex carries on his legacy, adding to Lionel's own prestige, or the Luthor greatness ends with Lionel himself.

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Good questions, certainly, but perhaps better considered without the either/or framework for Lionel's motive. If the two likeliest outcomes are Lex's ultimate triumph or Lionel's, then his parenting practices have a win/win result; either Lex carries on his legacy, adding to Lionel's own prestige, or the Luthor greatness ends with Lionel himself.

I meant that both possibilities existed simultanenously; they're indivisible, like Lionel is. We don't know what he's thinking because generally he's thinking everything, someone impossible to pin down. I do think that Lionel's primary concern is Lionel himself; any love he feels for Lex ultimately reflects back on himself.

I'm not sure if I'm replying in all fairness to your comment, but I think it's because I don't see a big difference between what you're saying and what I was trying to say. ;-)

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[info]teenygozer
2003-10-21 07:59 pm UTC (link)
Wow... this is... truly something it will be necessary to read more than once. I wish my mother watched Smallville, I'd send her a link to this essay, she'd love this. This sort of discussion is her milk and meat, her hobby being comparative religion. I remember having a conversation about the Abraham and Isaac story with her many years ago, her idea was that it represented an evolutionary moment in human history: the moment in time when human sacrifice was no longer necessary or desirable in religion; it was yet another break with--or better, an evolutionary leap up from--the old religions and old ways, that had started with monotheism. So, in her eyes at least, it was a rather hopeful story about humanity becoming more civilized, as opposed to a story about a dysfunctional family, or a dysfunctional god. If I remember correctly, God sends an animal (a goat?) to be sacrificed in the place of Isaac. From there on in, no human blood need be spilled, God has said that the life of an animal is enough.

Wish I could be more coherent, but I'm skirting the edges of a migraine here and must go to bed. I'm gonna have to re-read this thought-provoking essay again tomorrow, as well as everyone's thought-provoking commentary, when "thought-provoking" doesn't cause pain. I wanted to say something about hubris and about the changing perception of pride, but... the meds are kickin' in. ;)

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 08:54 pm UTC (link)
So, in her eyes at least, it was a rather hopeful story about humanity becoming more civilized, as opposed to a story about a dysfunctional family, or a dysfunctional god.

Your mother sounds like an interesting woman, babe. I like her hopeful reading, although I'm not convinced that we've evolved all that much since that time; our sacrifices are offered in different arenas now. (But then I'm having a skeptical evening.) Still, cool to think of the story as marking a shift. I like those shifts.

If I remember correctly, God sends an animal (a goat?) to be sacrificed in the place of Isaac. From there on in, no human blood need be spilled, God has said that the life of an animal is enough.

He sends a ram in place of Isaac, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of any "from there on in." The angel of the Lord talks to Abraham, telling him that "in blessing I will blesss thee, and in multiplying I will multiphy thy seed as the stars of th heaven, and...{lots of stuff about his seed and all that it will do.}" Maybe this happens later, though...

I wanted to say something about hubris and about the changing perception of pride, but... the meds are kickin' in. ;)

Tease! When you're feeling better -- and I hope that's taken place already -- I'd like to hear your comments. :-)

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[info]snails_pace
2003-10-21 09:07 pm UTC (link)
hey. I can't really add anything smart that hasn't already been better said above...but I really like this post. and also?

if you haven't already you should watch that movie the Believer with Ryan Gosling (cute blond boy from Murder by Numbers). Besides being a really good movie, there are whole scenes where the young version of Ryan (dont remember the character's name) is arguing with the rabbi/teacher at his school (yeshiva?) about the Isaac/Abraham story. Its very well written, but to paraphrase, he basically says that God just challenges Abraham to kill his son because he can, because he wants to rub Abraham's nose in the fact that He is everything and Abraham is nothing. He basically calls God a bully and the Jewish people a bunch of pussies for naming it love. (the Christians could be painted with this brush too, but he is only talking about his group, for which he reserves a special vitriol) Of course, he himself has a deep religious faith that he is struggling with the whole time as well...

anyway. your post just reminded me of this.

And on another but related note...I wasn't raised religious, but my grade 4 teacher was and she read to us from the bible every morning and freaked the hell out of me. The story of Lucifer? I totally related to him and didnt really see what he had done wrong and God just sort of came off as a big jerk. I felt so sorry for Lucifer, and kind of proud of him for not sucking up to the big meanie, even though he so obviously missed him and was probably not enjoying his new life in Hell all that much. *sob* needless to say, I was freaked out by my Sympathy for the Devil in grade 4. I still root for the underdog, and Lex makes a really sexy Lucifer, don't you think?

*g*

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-21 11:28 pm UTC (link)
if you haven't already you should watch that movie the Believer with Ryan Gosling (cute blond boy from Murder by Numbers).

Heh. I know Ryan Gosling from MbN, but also from Young Hercules: he played the title role, and I've read plenty o' stories where he was Ares' bitch. Yum. *g*

Its very well written, but to paraphrase, he basically says that God just challenges Abraham to kill his son because he can, because he wants to rub Abraham's nose in the fact that He is everything and Abraham is nothing. He basically calls God a bully and the Jewish people a bunch of pussies for naming it love.

It's always hard for me to accept stories of blind faith, probably for a lot of us in the post-Enlightenment age. We expect empiricism, need it maybe a little too much. If God is good, then nothing God can do is wrong, so sacrifice must be good; there's a logic to it, maybe even a strength of conviction that I secretly envy. Imagine knowing something so deeply...

Sounds like an interesting movie, babe. I'll have to check it out.

The story of Lucifer? I totally related to him and didnt really see what he had done wrong and God just sort of came off as a big jerk.

It's too easy for us to see parallels between God and your generic tyrant these days with his insistence on unilateral goodness, on pure, unquestionable right. I mean, even if he is right, you want to argue with him on principle, you know?

I felt so sorry for Lucifer, and kind of proud of him for not sucking up to the big meanie, even though he so obviously missed him and was probably not enjoying his new life in Hell all that much. *sob*

Lucifer's the ultimate underdog, the bad boy we simultaneously pity and want to boink. *g*

needless to say, I was freaked out by my Sympathy for the Devil in grade 4. I still root for the underdog, and Lex makes a really sexy Lucifer, don't you think?

Lex makes a sexy anything -- God, Devil, bed partner for a tired Thamiris...

Heh. I wish.

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[info]mecurtin
2003-10-22 07:24 am UTC (link)
There's only one niche in Western culture grand enough for Lionel, complicated, arbitrary, mysterious, all-power, and that's God himself.

Have you read Martin Bergmann's In the Shadow of Moloch: The Sacrifice of Children and Its Impact on Western Religions? A brilliant book, though with a strict Freudian take -- but like most psychoanalysts Bergmann is very thoughtful and well-read, along with being loopy. Bergmann supports your view 100%, especially in the context of "Phoenix." In the Bible, sacrificed children are said to be "passed through the fire to Moloch" -- and hasn't Lex, the Phoenix, passed through the fire?

Lionel has always reminded me of Goya's Saturn, and his hair is becoming more like Saturn's every day. And the child he is devouring is reminding me more of Lex.

*goes off to solace self with re-read of "The Hands of Orpheus"

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-22 07:54 am UTC (link)
Have you read Martin Bergmann's In the Shadow of Moloch: The Sacrifice of Children and Its Impact on Western Religions? A brilliant book, though with a strict Freudian take -- but like most psychoanalysts Bergmann is very thoughtful and well-read, along with being loopy. Bergmann supports your view 100%, especially in the context of "Phoenix." In the Bible, sacrificed children are said to be "passed through the fire to Moloch" -- and hasn't Lex, the Phoenix, passed through the fire?

I haven't read the book, although it sounds interesting. I'm always up for a good Freudian reading, too, even in this day and age. And I like the image of being "passed through the fire"; it's exactly what happens to Lex, and Lionel, while he tries to absolve himself from all responsibility, is at least partly to blame here.

Lionel has always reminded me of Goya's Saturn, and his hair is becoming more like Saturn's every day. And the child he is devouring is reminding me more of Lex.

Yes! Lionel's very much like a monstrous old god, willing to eat his offspring both to ensure that he won't be overthrown, and probably because on some level he believes that this act in itself, the eating of his own flesh, will give him even greater strength.

*goes off to solace self with re-read of "The Hands of Orpheus"

This conversation has *me* wanting to reread my own story. *g* I mean, poor Lex. Poor damn(ed) Lex. He needs a little pseudo-Christic comfort.

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[info]logovo
2003-10-22 10:08 am UTC (link)
Ah Thamiris, I thought it would only be the civilized thing to do to let you know how much I enjoyed this post, even if having nothing to add :)

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[info]thamiris
2003-10-22 02:09 pm UTC (link)
Ah Thamiris, I thought it would only be the civilized thing to do to let you know how much I enjoyed this post, even if having nothing to add :)

On a day when the world feels particularly uncivilized, this is a nice comment to see. (I mean, it always would be, but even more so today.) Thanks for saying that, hon. :-)

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(no subject) - [info]logovo, 2003-10-23 12:24 pm UTC (Expand)

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